Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by D P 3 on October 10, 2011 at 8:11pm

All hi-wing Pipers are fabric, although there was a type of covering approved called "Razorback" that is essentially fiberglass.  You don't see it much.  I've never seen a metalized Hi-wing Piper, although there are various panels done in aluminum.

Thing about the Tripacer is the wings are so short you have an essentially unobstructed view upward as well as down.

If you're interested in that breed of aircraft I recommend a Super Cub with the extra plexiglas panels to give you a view in all directions.

Permalink Reply by Mike on October 12, 2011 at 10:27am

I hear you on the Cub, but at this point they are a bit out of my price range for my first aircraft.  I haven't seen a complete Cub for less than 50K in my area.  Maybe Cessna just makes more sense in this arena...  Available, realtively cheap (at the 172 level) and not fabric.  I guess the fabric issue worries me a bit, just seems like yet another thing to worry about maintenance with.  Thanks for your reply..

Permalink Reply by D P 3 on October 12, 2011 at 10:59am

Mike,

Having owned an interesting quantity of aircraft over the years, I'll offer the following.  First is that I have never seen a time when the asking prices are so far above the actual selling prices.  There is an epidemic of "magical thinking" in which sellers who are ready to dispose of their aircraft hold on to the belief that their airplane, out of all the others for sale, will actually attract a price similar to what it may have gotten in 2006.  As a result, a lot of aircraft go unsold.  Gradually, people capitulate and you can buy a lot of aircraft for your price.  You must know what you want, know what you'll pay, and keep looking.  "In your area" is largely irrelevant to buying an aircraft unless you want to penalize yourself regarding both price and choices.

Fabric is no particular worry, so long as you buy an aircraft that was recovered in the last 10 years.  Every fabric aircraft should be recovered about every 20 years or so regardless of the condition of the fabric as this is the only wan you can do a thorough inspection of the underlying structure.  The fabric itself is no bother.  Aluminum, particularly in the age aircraft you seem to be considering, can and often does start exhibiting corrosion that is far more terminal than the occasional rusty steel tube and need for new fabric.  A Tripacer is definitely in the "aging aircraft" bracket.

I just bought a 1967 Piper PA18 on Wipline amphibious floats for $90k.  The aircraft was restored to perfection in 2002, with numerous upgrades, and the floats were new at that time.  The current price for Wip Amphibs is around $50,000, so we might ascribe a market value of $40,000 to a PA18 with 435 hours since restoration, modern radios, uprated engine, new prop, etc.  A PA18 in somewhat more used condition should be buyable for less than $40k, right?  Of course, you will have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince, as you have to sort through the sellers that have not yet accepted the new world we're living in.

The last point is that you are likely to be the last owner of any Tripacer you buy.  There is a very limited market for these aircraft, and we have probably arrived at the time when it no longer makes any sense to restore one.  Super Cubs will ALWAYS have a market as they are desirable working aircraft, particularly in Canada and Alaska, but here in the US as well.  If you do the math on a $20,000 Tripacer with zero re-sale value, and a $40,000 Super Cub with about 85% retention of value (or more), you can see it is far cheaper to own the aircraft with some retained value.

Good luck!

Don

Permalink Reply by Mike on October 12, 2011 at 11:12am

Thanks for the insight.  I agree with you on most of the very practical statements you made.  However financial reality is the constant, and when you only have $23k to spend, that reality is: own somthing that is worth less (maybe even nothing in the future) or take on a partner.  Both of those scenarios seem troublesome to me.. So the rock and the hard spot continue.  On another note, I have heard the following advice more than once: Tailwheel aircraft are not practicle for Oklahoma's prarie winds if used for leisure.  That would be suitable for working aircraft only in Oklahoma not so much for the enjoyment of a private pilot.  Lacking any tailwheel time, I can't really judge that for myself but it does appeal to one's sensability considering we often have winds in the 30 mph range.  I would like to hear your perspective on that...  Thanks again for your input...

Permalink Reply by D P 3 on October 12, 2011 at 11:39am

Your call, Mike.  Hate to see someone paint themselves into a corner, though.

I grew up in North Texas, just short of Okie-land, so have some idea of your winds.  If you want a real eye opener regarding wind, however, check out northern Nevada where I live now.  We routinely have semi-trailers tossed onto their sides driving through Washoe Valley just north of here.  Point being, a tail wheel aircraft can operate anywhere that a nose-wheel aircraft can go.  There is a lot of hear-say anecdotal "factoids" regarding tail wheel aircraft, but when you get past that, they have broader capabilities than nose-wheel except for being unkind to inept or careless pilots.  Just get good training, fly a lot, and you'll be fine.

Another piece of wisdom is that any aircraft you buy is an aircraft someone wanted to get rid of.  There is no such thing as a $23,000 airplane.  Your investment will be the purchase price plus a fairly overwhelming stack of long-ignored discrepancies that got so high the previous owner decided it was better to sell than fix.  Well, you can buy a $10,000 airplane and put $13,000 into it and end up with one in your described price range, but please abandon any idea that the actual investment will be anything like the purchase price.  The older they are, and farther they are from "restoration" the more your trailing expenses will be.  I highly recommend that you broaden your search to the entire country, and start making a list of the characteristics you are willing to buy, such as:

TBO remaining at least 1,000 hours

Time since fabric covering - max 10 years (there is no such thing as a "punch test" on polyester coverings)

Radios - at least KX155 or Garmin.  Narco now defunct, and KX170/175 no longer economic to repair.  Disregard any aircraft with off-brand radios.  You'll end up tossing them at the first failure.

Look for aircraft that have been kept "in annual" constantly rather that recently inspected to facilitate a sale. 

Look for a very specific list of AD's complied with, and run away from any where the logs simply say "all ADs complied with".

Avoid aircraft that have been stored outside.  Hangared aircraft only.  This will be apparent in the condition of the plexiglass and plastic interior pieces and farings.

There is a huge supply of aircraft for sale, due to the economic situation, and old guys like me running out of medicals.  You can buy a good aircraft if you set your standards and work hard looking for one.

It would take all my fingers and toes to add up friends and acquaintances who bought an aircraft for "all they could afford" only to discover that it was a hopeless mess requiring a doubling of the purchase price to make it reliably airworthy.  Thus, they sit on the ramp growing even less recoverable.

 

Sorry for the excess of advice, but it's free and I offer refunds upon request.

Good hunting!

Don